Category Archives: Interviews

Decoder Ring: The Incunabula Papers

What lies at the heart of Ong’s Hat?

Listen to this episode of Decoder Ring: 


Decoder Ring is a podcast about cracking cultural mysteries. Every month, host Willa Paskin, Slate’s TV critic, takes on a cultural question, object, idea, or habit and speaks with experts, historians and obsessives to try and figure out where it comes from, what it means and why it matters.

On the early internet, a conspiracy theory known as Ong’s Hat flourished. It combined real physics, speculative science, mysticism, and radical politics, to tell a tale about a secret cult of interdimensional travelers. Throughout the 1990s and early 2000s, clues would emerge about the travel cult: brochures, book catalogs, mysterious interviews, buried artifacts, and more. For years, users worked together to solve the mystery of Ong’s Hat and the man who masterminded it all.

Decoder Ring talks to those seekers and the man behind the curtain, to find out the truth: What is Ong’s Hat?

Download the art for this episode.

Links and further reading on some of the things we discussed on the show:

• Michael Kinsella’s book about Ong’s Hat: Legend-Tripping Online: Supernatural Folklore and the Search for Ong’s Hat

• “Interdimensional Portal” on YouTube

• Audiobook version of The Incunabula Papers

• Scans of the original Ong’s Hat mail-art

• Joseph Matheny’s website

• Joseph Matheny’s interview on Coast to Coast AM

Twitter: @willapaskin

This episode was co-written and edited by Willa Paskin and Benjamin Frisch. Benjamin Frisch produced the episode.

*SPOILER ALERT* In case anyone missed it, here is the game that was embedded in that episode: 

Best Friend Simulator Episode 16: Those Mummy Flippin’ Flintknappers/ Ong’s Hat

Topics include: Crimbus gifts, planning our funerals, Scary German Lady, Philly Legends: The Bubble Fairy, Josh is home alone, Alien Alloys, BFS Road Trip, Corrections and Josh’s Chaos Dimension: Ong’s Hat, the Pine Barrens, and Joseph Matheny

Characters: Sammy Squarespace (the CEO of Square Space)


Special Episode: ‘Fake Lore, Dark Memes’, with Joseph Matheny

If you enjoy STEAL THIS SHOW, think about becoming a patron. Our Patreon campaign keeps us free and independent – and keeps shows coming your way!

This episode is part two of our interview with Joe Matheny. Part one, The Digital Underground, covered Joe’s experiences running The Grey Lodge, an early, underground private torrent tracker used by millions of people per month. Part two covers Joe’s groundbreaking ARG & literary work, Ong’s Hat, and its place in early internet culture, before we veer off into a discussion about how the ‘fakelore’ methods Joe used in the development of that work connect to the meme wars of today and the increasing political importance of memes (e.g. Kek, the ‘alt-right’ appropriation of Pepe The Frog.) We also discuss the very improbable connection (it really is) between Joe and Jamie, and how Joe became a patron of the show himself; PLUS, the potential for Kodi addons as a distribution point for indie creators.

Original URL

Parts 1 & 2 also available from

A lockfile with all the links mentioned in this episode is coming up for Patrons. Enjoy!

Showrunner & Host Jamie King | Editor Riley Byrne
Original Music David Triana | Web Production Eric Barch

Presented by TorrentFreak

Sponsored by Private Internet Access & Premiumize

Executive Producers: Mark Zapalac, Eric Barch.

The Digital Underground: with The Grey Lodge’s Joseph Matheny

The Grey Lodge was an underground private torrent tracker used by millions of people per month in their quest to uncover the esoteric, strange and the downright weird. In this episode we hear from Joe Matheny, one of the founders of the site, about how it kicked off in the very early days of BitTorrent, online culture in the early days of the Internet, proto-copyright trolls, how even weirdos eventually get pursued by the MPAA, and how the demise of indie trackers from Grey Lodge to What.CD mean a net loss for our culture.

Coming soon: the second part of this interview, in which Joe discusses his work as an early creator of “this is not a game” ARG experiences and his well-known work Ong’s Hat, The Incunabula Papers. We’ll be making that available for supporters on the Patreon (and maybe more widely) in due course. In the meantime, if you’re curious to take a look at some of Joe’s work, he’s been kind enough to give us a free pack including Ong’s Hat and some samples from his ARG! Enjoy.

Links to show: and

Podcast: Download |  Torrent |  Magnet

Parts 1 & 2 also available from

Showrunner & Host Jamie King | Editor Riley Byrne
Original Music David Triana | Web Production Siraje Amarniss

Presented by TorrentFreak | Sponsored by Private Internet Access

Executive Producers: Mark Zapalac


Life in the Pines: Ong’s Hat

Story from the Asbury Park Press, a New Jersey newspaper on the legend(s) of Ong’s Hat.

Some excerpts:

“Two weeks ago there were these young kids, like 19 or 20, who came by asking about Ong’s Hat,” said bartender Jacky Colon. “I looked it up on my phone. It was this weird interdimensional thing. Hold on, I have to look it up, this is how I got all my information on Google.”

Very short synopsis of said legend: Mash-up of religious sect, jazz musicians, native Pineys and rogue physicists settle in Ong’s Hat, open a portal to other dimensions. More on this later. First, that name.


During a lull, you can ask about those legends. The modern one about Ong’s Hat — that portal to another dimension somewhere out in the pitch pines — was popularized in the 2002 book “Ong’s Hat: The Beginning” by writer Joseph Matheny, who creates transmedia works and is a prominent figure in alternative reality gaming.

“Nineteen eighty-nine, I think this started. I had a friend who had a cabin out there in the Pine Barrens, and he hosted these parties. He was very bohemian and had artists and writers of all kinds out there,“ Matheny said. ‘He gave me a pamphlet that purported to be this story about Princeton scientists and something called the Ong’s Hat Rod and Gun Club, where they used to hang out and relax.“

During World War II the Pine Barrens were a testing ground for weapons development. Princeton scientists did explosives and ballistics work in the Forked Ruiver Mountains, and a Johns Hopkins University team fired crude surface-to-air missiles from the Project Bumblebee site at Island Beach. “There are kernels of reality to this legend,“ Matheny said.

With Matheny and other contributors writing, the story line arose ithrough the 1990s, first on computer bulletin boards frequented by gaming enthusiasts, generating online versions of urban legend that’s grown to an elaborate body of work. One consequence is an uptick in younger visitors seeking Ong’s Hat. Hence Colon’s close encounter at the Magnolia Bar.

 Folklorists call it legend tripping — the urge to visit supposedly haunted houses and the like. One infamous place is Leed’s Point near Smithville in Atlantic County. The supposed birthplace of the Jersey Devil — a half-human monster said to haunt the forest since the 1700s — attracts people around Halloween.

But the Ong’s Hat story is one of the first examples of “legend tripping online,” said Michael Kinsella, a scholar who studies new religions, paranormal beliefs and folk traditions at the University of California Santa Barbara. He’s author of the 2011 book “Legend-Tripping Online: Supernatural Folklore and the Search for Ong’s Hat,” published by the University Press of Mississippi.

“I’ve always been fascinated by supernatural beliefs,” said Kinsella, who like Ong’s Hat enthusiasts stumbled across the story online, and wrote a whole dissertation on it for his master’s degree in 2007, which led to the book. The cross-connections of various enthusiast websites — whether gaming, UFOs or conspiracy theories — lead like a trail of digital bread crumbs to Ong’s Hat.

He sees it as technology simply extending an ancient human compulsion. “People really want to seek out the eerie and paranormal,” Kinsela said.

There are other snippets from actual history in the Ong’s Hat portal legend, like radioactive waste. Around the time the legend was developing, the Department of Defense was figuring out what to do with thousands of tons of soil contaminated with plutonium when a nuclear missile burned up a few miles away at Fort Dix in 1961. That’s how modern legends grow, Kinsella said.

“It’s typical for these kinds of stories to mix up history and facts and legend,” he said. “So much weird stuff and stories seems to come out of the Pine Barrens, they reinforce each other.”

“If nothing else, it is a vortex of mysteries, legends, tradition and folklore…I’m interested in tracking it back as far as I can, but I don’t want to puncture that bubble,“ Matheny said. “There’s nothing in the structure of the story that I haven’t heard, in one form or another, from people in the area.”

Read it all here.

The Rise Of The ARG: games™ investigates alternate reality games and what the future has in store for the curious experiment.

Game magazine: Issue 135, available now at newsstands, print or digital. The article runs about 6 pages, with citations to Incunabula/Ong’s Hat and myself throughout.

pdficon_largeComplete article here: The Rise Of The ARG: games™ investigates alternate reality games and what the future has in store for the curious experiment. 

Here is a small excerpt (used with permission) from that article:


“But what exactly is an ARG? For the community, that definition is largely rooted in the ‘this is not a game’ aesthetic. ARGs are games that do not acknowledge that they are games; they pose as alternate realities hidden away in streams of dormant internet code. Their stories exist not in unified narrative, but are spread across phone lines, email addresses, websites and any other forms of media that the puppetmasters – that is, the game’s creators – deem to be useful. ARG’s exist in real-time as constantly evolving, potentially boundless storytelling experiences.

Continue reading The Rise Of The ARG: games™ investigates alternate reality games and what the future has in store for the curious experiment.

The Chromos Kids: DNA Wars! Christopher Hyatt interviewed by Joseph Matheny from the Black Book Volume III…

Christopher Hyatt
The Chromos Kids: DNA Wars!
Christopher Hyatt interviewed by Joseph Matheny from the Black Book Volume III Galts Ark Vol 01- Joseph Matheny talks to Christopher Hyatt and Hyatt opens up to his friend  taking us all on a rollicking ride through his mind. This is one of the last interviews Hyatt did before his untimely death in 2008.


ScribdThe Chromos Kids: DNA Wars! Christopher Hyatt interviewed by Joseph Matheny from the Black Book Volume III…

Archive.orgHyatt Christopher Joseph Matheny The Black Book Volume III Galts Ark Vol 01 (January 1, 2008)

Full book, with more contributions from me along with other Black Books I contributed to available from Amazon and other book sellers.

Matheny: What is the cuberoot of Intelligence?

Dr. Hyatt: Mutants:
  • Leary
  • Lindner
  • Francis
  • De Sade
  • Fuller
  • Wilson
  • Matheny
  • Agents of change
  • Experimenters
  • Risk takers

Thriving Underground Website Anonymously Markets Illegal Drugs

I’m cited as an “expert” in this article by my old friend David Jay Brown. It’s about Bitcoin and Silk Road.

Read it here: The Silk Road website uses an anonymous browser, untraceable currency, shifting servers and an encrypted Web address to allow for a thriving illegal drug trade on the Internet.

To learn more about Silk Road, and about the Bitcoin economy that fuels it, I interviewed transmedia writer/artist Joseph Matheny, who is an expert on computer encryption and the underground Internet economy. According to Matheny, ordering from Silk Road is generally safe, if you know what you’re doing and take the proper precautions.

The GSpot: Mark Mallman


Joseph Matheny in conversation with the diversely creative spirit, Mark Mallman.

Listen here

“Criminally under appreciated” and “The greatest indie songwriter you’ve never heard” are both phrases written in the past 12 years of Mark Mallman’s professional career.  He’s opened for the likes of Donovan, Of Montreal, Cat Power, Green Day, Howie Day, Linda Ronstadt, Tegan and Sara, and Guided by Voices to name a select few.  His songs have been featured on This American Life, MTV, VH1, MSNBC, Current Television, and Public Radio International.  In Minneapolis, he boasts a star on the side of First Avenue Nightclub.  He is also featured contributor in the book “Music Theory for Dummies”.

As front man for Kindercore records electro/house/rock act, Ruby Isle – or composer for major motion picture trailers such as 10000bc, Adventureland, The Hitcher, and The Haunting of Molly Hartley – Mark Mallman has accomplished more creatively than most artists twice his age.  Unlike ANY other artist, he’s performed the longest rock song ever written, a piano solo with the rear tire of a full sized motor scooter, and for 10 hours inside of a refrigerator box.  His newest release, “Invincible Criminal”, was released  fall of 2009 on Badman Recording Company (My Morning Jacket, Starf***ker) .

The GSpot: Richard Nash


Joseph Matheny in conversation with Richard Nash about publishing/e-publishing past-present-future.

Listen to or download show here

Utne Reader calls Richard Nash “One of 50 Visionaries Who Are Changing Your World.” ranks him him “The #1 Twitter User Changing the Shape of Publishing.” He ran Soft Skull Press, now an imprint of Counterpoint, from 2001 to 2007, and ran the imprint on behalf of Counterpoint until early 2009. Here’s why he left. The last book he edited at Soft Skull, Lydia Millet’s Love in Infant Monkeys, was just picked as a Pulitzer finalist.

Nash now runs his own consulting business (details here) and is developing a start-up called Cursor, a portfolio of niche social publishing communities, one of which will be called Red Lemonade.

The following is an excerpt of a longer, recorded conversation between Cup of TNB host Joseph Matheny and Richard Nash that occurred on March 23, 2010.

(A text excerpt of this interview ran earlier on The Nervous Breakdown)

THE GSpot: Nick Belardes


Joseph Matheny in conversation with Nick Belardes about his new book, Random Obsessions and a new episode of Bound Up With Books, reviewing De Sade’s Valet by Nikolaj Frobenius.

Listen to or download show here
NICK BELARDES is the author of Random Obsessions (2009) a book of oddities where you will learn that Mothman might be your big brother, Napoleon had stomach aches, and Thomas Jefferson’s grandson was an ax murderer. In 2005 he released the dark novel Lords: Part One a fictional account of the mysterious “Lords of Bakersfield.” A writer, poet and author, Belardes turned TV/online journalist overnight after blogging his way to success on Bakersfield issues. His articles and essays have appeared on the homepage of and other news sites across America. Lately, he has started to write less journalism in order to focus more on writing books and performing activist poetry that might wake up some of the lethargic brains of California’s Great Central Valley. He lives in Bakersfield, which is in the valley’s southern end. You can find Nick on Facebook and Twitter.


The GSpot: Richard Metzger


Joseph Matheny in conversation with Richard Metzger about publishing and the future of media. Also, a new In Your Ear, reviewing the Sex is Fun podcast.

Listen to or download show here


Richard Metzger (born October 25, 1965 in Wheeling, West Virginia) is a British television host and author. He was the host of the TV show Disinformation, The Disinformation Company and its website, He is currently the host of the online talk show Dangerous Minds.


The GSpot: Steve Peters



Joseph Matheny in conversation with old friend Steve Peters. Steve is a founding member of No Mimes Media, who produced the Why So Serious for The Dark Knight and  Year Zero for Nine Inch Nails ARG/Transmedia Experiences and a host of others.  Also, In Your Ear reviews John Hummel Blogs the Religions.

Listen here

Continue reading The GSpot: Steve Peters

Cup of TNB: Episode 6: Jonathan Evison


Cup of TNB host Joseph Matheny talks to TNB editor and author Jonathan Evison.

Listen to or download show here

JONATHAN EVISON is the author of All About Lulu, which won the 2009 Washington State Book Award, as well as the forthcoming novels, West of Here, and The Revised Fundamentals of Caregiving. In 2009, he received a fellowship from the Christopher Isherwood Foundation. He is the Executive Editor of The Nervous Breakdown, and an advisory editor at Knock. He blogs at Three Guys, One Book. He especially likes rabbits and beer.

For more information about The Nervous Breakdown check out TNB in the LA Times.


The GSpot: D.R. Haney


Joseph Matheny in conversation with D.R. “Duke” Haney, raconteur extraordinaire and  the author of the novel Banned for Life . Also a new  In Your Ear, Psuke reviews the  Brain Science Podcast.

Listen to or download the show here
BANNED FOR LIFE is a novel about punk rock written over the course of nine years, both in the U.S. and abroad. It was recently (5/09) published by And/Or Press in Vancouver.

I’m interviewed for the smallWorld

the smallWORLD: Joseph Matheny, Alterati

On the last edition of the small WORLD I announced that the small WORLD had found a new home on Alterati. But what is Alterati? That’s the topic of today’s show.

Our guest on today’s show is Joseph Matheny, the founder of Alterati.

Joseph has been on the small WORLD twice before: once to talk about The Incunabula Papers: Ong’s Hat and once to talk about Grey Lodge. Joseph has also worked for Adobe. Joseph has also written and contributed to many books and magazine articles, is involved in theater, television, film and video and will soon be launching Hukilau.

We’ll learn all about Joseph and more on today’s show. Stay tuned!

As always, you can reach me at or follow me on Twitter at

The Gspot: John Harrigan


In anticipation of the upcoming performance of The Abattoir Pages, Joseph Matheny in conversation with John Harrigan about anything and everything that comes to their mind.

All music provided by Veil of Thorns

Songs, in order:

  • And the Beast of the Vision Still Roams in Dream
  • Intellectual Institutional Object
  • Thought Pollution Evolution

In Your Ear: Reviewing Selected Shorts: A Celebration of the Short Story


Download or listen to the show here

Continue reading The Gspot: John Harrigan

The GSpot: Michael Mailer


Joseph Matheny discussed the state of independent film and ponders some solutions to the “Internet dilemma” with his friend and partner, Michael Mailer. Also, a new episode of “In Your Ear” with Psuke.

Download or listen to the show here


Michael Mailer (born 1964) is a film producer and the oldest son of writer Norman Mailer. He has produced over 17 films. He has one sister Kate and two brothers Matthew and Stephen an actor. He is the co-founder of Bigel/Mailer films. He is married to Sasha Lazard and they have one son Cyrus. (wikipedia)



Can you see the lizard people following me?”


Special on the street reports and mailbag. Gpod guy goes to the street to ask random people the questions: “Have you heard of David Icke? Have you heard of the Reptilian conspiracy? Can you see the lizard people following me?”

What happens when you walk around asking people a simple question: Do you know about the reptilian mind control conspiracy?


Join us and find out:

Diane di Prima Interviewed By Joseph Matheny




Since I was a lad I’ve admired beat literature and its developers. My young mind was taken with the romantic image of Kerouac roaming the interior of the body politic, a mad sweating virus on the loose in the highway vein of Amerika, Ginsberg holy maniac,chanting, praying, exorcising a generation ruined by madness, Burroughs and Gysin, pushing the envelope, rubbing out the word, and di Prima, conjuring, straddling the magick/dream line, throwing us bits of tasty metamorsels and sumptuous subconscious feasts from the other side.

Diane di Prima is a San Francisco writer and poet who also works in healing, Magick, and Alchemy .some of here recent books are:Recollections of My Life as a Woman The New York Years, Pieces of a Song -Collected Poems,  Zip Code, and Seminary Poems. See a complete list here.

I spoke to Diane  in her cozy book lined San Francisco apartment. We spoke of rebellion, liberty, conditioning, and on being a women in the beat generation.This is a transcript of our recorded conversation.


JM: When you started out as a writer in the 50′s, were there a lot of control systems set up to punish anyone who tried to break out the consensus mold?

DD: It was a weird time. Especially for women. Rebellion was kind of expected of men.

JM: When men rebelled they were romantic, free. Women who rebelled were categorized as being nuts.

DD: Yes. Nuts or a whore, or something. Yes.

JM: Do you feel it’s any different now?

DD: Not much. I think there’s been a lot of lip service paid to how much women have managed to advance. The younger women that I know are behaving pretty much like women have always behaved. Maybe they don’t have so much of the middle class housewife dream, but they’ll still be the one to get a job, while the man does the writing or the painting or whatever. I can think of example after example of this. I think that the internal control systems that have been put in place for women haven’t been dented. It’s such a big step forward to single mom, but so much more could be going on besides that.

JM: That’s where the most effective censorship and control systems reside, inside ourselves, our head!

DD: Yes! How it gets there is interesting too.

JM: How do you think they get there?

DD: I would guess that it starts in the womb. Getting imprinted with the language pattern that’s around you. The way people move, the way they hold themselves. To break it you’d have to do some really deliberate debriefing, on every level. The place where I was lucky in my own life was that I had a grandfather who was an anarchist. I didn’t see much of him after I was 7 because my parents thought he was bad for me, but from 3 to 7 I saw a lot of him. I was still malleable enough so some debriefing occurred there. He would tell me these really weird fables about the world. He would read Dante to me and take me to the old peoples anarchist rallies, and all this showed me these other possibilities.

JM: So you had an early imprint of a kind of… anti-authority, authority figure. (laughs)

DD: (laughing) Yes! Aside from being an anti-authority authority figure, the imprint that I got from him and my grandmother as well, was of two people who weren’t afraid, at least from my child’s point of perspective. They would just go ahead and do what they believed in. In all the other years of my early life I never encountered anyone else who wasn’t afraid. I think kids today may be a little better off in that they encounter a few people who either aren’t afraid, or who will go ahead and try something anyway, whatever it is. There’s a possibility of that model, but during my childhood that was a very unusual model.

I was born in 1934, during the Depression, and everyone seemed to befrozenwithterror. We…..will….do… what….we….are….told! (laughs) and I don’t think it’s changed that much. Every day people are told that they should be afraid of not having health insurance, they’re going to die in the gutter, and to be afraid of all these things that aren’t threats at the moment. Of course there are present threats but nobody’s paying attention to those.

JM: It seems to me that rebellion itself has become a commodity, the media has co-opted rebellions like rock-n-roll, Dada, Surrealism, poetry, the rebel figure. Do you feel that this co-opting has succeeded in making rebellion somewhat ineffectual?

DD: No. What you’re seeing is an old problem in the arts. Everything is always co-opted, and as soon as possible. As Cocteau used to talk about, you have to be a kind of acrobat or a tightrope walker. Stay 3 jumps ahead of what they can figure out about what you’re doing, so by the time the media figures out that your writing, say, women and wolves, your on to finishing your Alchemical poems or something. It’s not just a point of view of rebellion or outdoing them, or anything like that. It’s more a point of view of how long can you stay with one thing. Where do you want to go? You don’t want to do anything you already know or that you’ve already figured out. So it comes naturally to the artist to keep making those jumps, that is, if they don’t fall into the old “jeez, I still don’t own a new microwave” programs.

JM: Reminds me of a story about Aldous Huxley. When asked if he had read all the books in his quite impressive library he replied, “God no! Who would want a library full of books that they had already read?”

DD: (laughs) It is true that rebellion is co opted, but then it always gets out of their hands, it slithers in some other direction. Then they go “oh, how can we make this part of the system?” Like rap. OK, they are co-opting all this regular rap, but now this surreal rap is starting, native tongue, surreal imagery, spiritual anarchism rap, it’s not about girls or politics or race and it’s starting to happen.


JM: Is this something your daughter brings to your attention?

DD: Yes, I go over once in awhile and catch up on what’s going on. You see as soon as something is defined, it wiggles off in another direction. I don’t think that it’s such a big problem in the sense of reaching a lot of people. How does the artist reach a large audience? The people that know are always going to find the new edge, but the mainstream are not that smart or the guy making a top 40 record is not that smart. It often takes them a long time to figure it out. Now that is a problem, because we don’t have the time. We need to reach everybody, right away, because we have to stop the system dead in its tracks. It’s no longer a question of dismantling the system. There isn’t enough time to take it apart, we just have to stop it.

JM: Do you feel that there’s a somewhat centralized or conscious attempt to defuse radical art or rebellion through co-option, or is it just “the nature of the beast”, so to speak?

DD: I think it goes back and forth. There are times when it’s conscious, but not a single hierarchical conspiracy but rather a hydra-headed conspiracy. Then there are other times that it doesn’t need to be conscious anymore, because that’s the mold, that pattern has been set, so everyone goes right on doing things that way. I’m not quite sure which point we’re at right now in history. It’s so transitional and crazy that I wouldn’t hazard a guess. Just check your COINTELPRO history to see an example of a conscious conspiracy to stop us. Other times it was just a repetition of what has gone on before. Like the ants going back to where the garbage used to be. (laughs)

JM: Robotic functioning.

DD: Yes, and it’s all in place when the next so called conspiracy comes along, which is very handy, isn’t it? I Wonder how we’ve made this monster we have here?

JM: OK. Say we stop it dead in its tracks. What then?

DD: It would be nice to say it’s unimaginable, wouldn’t that be great. That would be my hope! (laughs) For one thing, we’d have to use the same tables, wear the same shoes longer, read a lot of the same books, maybe for the next few hundred years. Dumps would become valuable places to mine!

JM: They already are to me!

DD: To some people, yes, but not to enough people. Screeching to a halt seems like the only possible solution and I’m not even sure how you would go about it. Of course the good old general strike would be a nice start.

JM: As long as we’re on the subject of deconstructing, how do you feel about the predominant intellectual fad of postmodernism, deconstruction, and the nihilism implicit in these systems?

DD: Well, when I read that stuff, it’s so frustrating. Western thought always keeps stopping on the brink. It never really makes that extra step. It could really do with an infusion of Buddhist logic. At least 4-fold logic and then what’s beyond that. It seems that although it’s dressed up in new language, nothing really new has happened in philosophy in the 20th century. Well, maybe not since Wittgenstein. It seems like the same old thing. You know, sometimes when people ask me for poems now, I’ll send out poems that have been lying around for years, I don’t always have new poems lying around everywhere, and these things that I wrote as cut-up stuff, cutting up each others’ dreams in workshops and such. I’ll send these out. Everyone seems to be taking them very seriously and publishing them. They think I’m working off of some language theory when actually these are just things I did for fun.

JM: What are you doing now?

DD: I’m working on 2 prose books. One is called “Recollections of My Life as a Women”. I’m 120 pages into it and I’m still 8 years old. I’m still dealing with how the conditioning happened. In my generation a lot of it happened with battering, you got hit a lot, and screaming. Your basic conditioning came through abuse, not really different from concentration camps or anything else. I think someday we’re going to look back on how we’re handling kids at this point in history and wonder how we could treat them such. Like when people say “How could women stand it when people did such and such?” We’ll be saying that about the way children are treated. [Note- Since this interview this book has been completed and published ]

JM: What’s the other book?

DD: The other prose book is called “Not Quite Buffalo Stew”. It’s just a rollicking, fun, surreal novel about life in California. It’s in the first person, and in the 2nd or 3rd chapter in I found out that the “I” that was the narrator was a man, so that breaks a lot of rules already. The “I” is a drug smuggler named Lynx. There isn’t a whole lot of continuity, just whatever scenes wanted to write themselves.

JM: Are you using any kind or random/divination systems, i.e., cut-ups, grab bag, I Ching, Tarot, coin tossing, etc.?

DD: Not with this one. This one dictates itself. The system I guess I’m using is that I can’t write it at home. It won’t happen anywhere that’s familiar turf and it likes to happen while I’m driving. So I’ll probably head for Nevada at some point and finish it.

JM: What do you see in the future for poetry and literature?

DD: I would like to see authors really use Magick to reach themes. I’d like to see more work coming out of visioning and trance. I’m really tired of reading about human beings! There’s all these other beings, I’d like to see a real dimensional jump and I’d like to see people working on the technical problems. Like when you come back from trance or visioning, or drugs, and what you can write down about it at that moment. What you can make into an actual piece, we haven’t figured it out yet. Yeats certainly didn’t figure it out. It’s more than needing a new language. There are actual forms we need to find or the forms have to find us, that will hold all that material without trying to make it reductive. The attempts at visionary painting in the 60′s and Yeats’ last poems show how vision didn’t translate into these old artistic forms. Of course taking the raw material and presenting that as a piece doesn’t work either. Maybe a blending of vision, word, and sounds can achieve something. We haven’t really had time to think about what the computer is. Most of us still think of it as a typewriter, or a calculator. We don’t think of it as its own dimension. It has its own medium, possibilities, to bring this kind of material across. I also think about deliberate invocation to find the plane or thing you want to write about.

JM: Do you see us as heading into a post-literate society?

DD: Yes, we might be. I don’t think that will stop poetry, in fact it won’t stop any of the arts at all. Even if it’s oral there may be a split like there was in Europe when there was the written literature in Latin and then there was the oral poems of the singers in the Vulgate. We have that to a degree already with the poetry of the great songwriters. Really though, I don’t think literate or post-literate really matters. Were cave paintings literate or pre-literate? Did they read those paintings or just look at them? (laughs) Of course the only reason a completely literate society was developed was for thought control, and now that thought control can be done via TV, etc., it’s not really needed anymore. They don’t want everyone reading Schoepenhauer!

Everyone needs to remember that they can buy a small press or laser writer, or copy machine, and go home and do what the fuck they please and it will take a very long time for anyone to catch up with them all! No one seems to remember about a few years ago in Czechoslovakia, without access to all this technology like we have here, even with every one of their typewriters registered to the police, they still managed to publish their work! In order to do this they would they would type it with 10 carbon papers to make 10 copies! We are in a situation here in the US where no one can register all the computers, no one can figure out where all the copy machines are. Get one now! Remember we can do it without government money. Government money is poison, take it when you need it, but don’t get hooked. We can say what we want. They can’t possibly keep up with us all. Real decentralization!

JM: That’s great, helping people to find their true desires, but do you think that we’re so full of false, spectacle manufactured desires that we can no longer identify our true desires?

DD: I think it doesn’t take that long to deprogram false desires. Anyone who knows that they have the desire to know that about themselves, what their true desires are, will find the tools to do it. Drugs, auto-hypnosis, you could also do it by following the false desires until they lead to a dead end like Blake recommended…

JM: Hmmm… somehow that seems… very American…

DD: Hmmm. You’re right.

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